11 - Thornapple House
Jonathan: All right, I think we’re in business.
Laura: I will tell you about how coming to Thornapple began.
Jonathan: And this is just for the record, July 4, 2025. OK.
Laura: While we were living on Underwood and while I was struggling with whether to get a divorce, I was also in my mind dreaming of a house that had five bedrooms. I needed that. That would still be two kids to a room and mine only. So the only way I could imagine five bedrooms in a house would be a tri-level or a house with a basement, but the basement raised so that there’d be good windows there. So I drew plans on paper. And when my dad came to visit, I showed it to him and he was impressed. And that’s when we talked about how to financially pull it off. And that’s when I put the lot for sale. The way I put that lot up for sale was it was on a paper plate nailed to a tree out on the street. And I only had one call and it was sold. I’d never had to show it to any other people. And that was the beginning because once that was sold, then my dad and I had figured out about how much more I would need. By then I had been talking with the builder and the builder was wonderful and I needed 8,000 more, which my dad gave me in a check with no interest charged. And so the groundbreaking happened, and that was very exciting. 1973, what were you? I think 72. OK. But I’m not sure. I’m not sure. At any rate, I’ll remember. First of all, the wisecrack from the teacher and the teachers found how crazy I was to move that far out. At that time, that was really farm country. It was far away. It was many miles. And so his crack about my not realizing how many miles, how many hours I’m going to be on the road and with the wear and tear on my car, he thought was nuts because here I lived where I could walk to work. But it made me angry that he said that publicly. And the more it started to go up, the more excited we all became about the move and thinking about what we had to move. And at that stage, I wasn’t throwing anything away. I did not have a washing machine that was automatic. I had a washing machine with a ringer on the top and the suds would, you know, you would soap it up and make the ringer go, go, go, and then rinse it and then squeeze the water out through the rolling, whatever you call them. So coming out, that was the one thing that I did not move. But almost everything else, we needed the furniture for every room. We needed the dining room. We needed the little appliances in the kitchen. So moving was a major project.
Jonathan: Tell me, what time of year? Do you recall what time of year would this be during the summertime?
Laura: I don’t know. That’s why we’re going to have to look.
Jonathan: OK. Did somebody win a truck?
Laura: Or how is it that you moved all that stuff? That’s what’s bothering me. I don’t remember how we moved everything out here. But I do remember this. It was not finished yet. The pillars were not on the front. And my dad came to see the project that he had helped me get going. And I remember his standing in the front yard of the Thornapple House and shaking his head and saying, this is going to be a lovely place to raise children. So having my dad’s approval and his help financially mattered a lot to me. My mother actually didn’t see the house for quite a long time before we moved in.
Jonathan: And let me make sure I understand you’re at that point. Your dad was still a pastor in New Jersey, wasn’t he?
Laura: Yes, I think by then he was at the Christian San as a counselor, no longer no longer a pastor of a church. He would preach at varieties of churches. But his job during the week was on the staff of the Christian Sanatorium in Wyckoff, New Jersey.
Jonathan: But he found reason to come back to West Michigan and on one of those occasions.
Laura: They still had the cottage in Grand Haven. Okay. So that would be a reason for them to come. But I don’t remember my mother coming to see the house very early. And I remember. Let’s see.
We had not done much of the landscaping. And all of a sudden, my dad had a heart attack.
And ultimately, he was sent to the heart hospital in Ohio. What is that called again? Famous one. And I wanted to be with him. But my kids couldn’t be alone. So Paul and Dot came here and stayed with the kids. And this was very early into my living in this house. So while I was tending to my dad, Paul was ordering the kids to rake and gather stones and made a beginning of a landscape plan.
It wasn’t very long after that, that Doc died very suddenly on the job of a heart attack, I think. At any rate, our first days at the Thornapple must have been a summertime. And there was a whole lot of getting settled. And then there was a lot of rough yard work. And we had a long deliberation about school because there was a Caledonia bus that came right to my driveway. But I still, being a teacher at that time, I was teaching at Oakdale. It was required that my children go to a Christian school.
I told you the story of how that changed for Scott only, but all of the rest of my children attended Christian schools. So once we lived out here, the logistics of getting them to school was a little bit difficult because not only I had to be to school by seven thirty quarter to eight, but that was too early for me to be dropping them off at their schools. So my kids ended up at their school before I could get to my school. I had to drop them off. That would have been Oakdale and Christian High.
Now,
What that meant was at the same time, Heidi very soon began basketball. At least four of my children had private music lessons. All of that would have been after the 3.15 school let out. So we would leave the house sometimes at 6.30 in the morning or quarter to seven. and we wouldn’t get home until 5.30 or 6 at night. I remember that there were a number of times on the 28th Street stretch, there was particularly one corner where there was a McDonald’s, a Wendy’s, a Taco’s. If you parked in the middle, you could go to all of them. And I remember that after one of those long days of waiting for music lessons to be done or for Heidi to be done with basketball, that on the way home, I would give everybody, I’m not sure, maybe a dollar that they would choose. I would park sort of in the middle of these three restaurants and the kids would all run out and get what they wanted and come back. And then I didn’t cook that night. If we did eat at home, and during those days I cooked in very large amounts so I always had leftovers that were easy to heat up.
But after making a hot meal for everybody and cleaning that up, I would also get going on making the lunches for the next day that night because I couldn’t do that in the morning. So food preparation, from the time we arrived home, which was late afternoon until we didn’t watch Jeopardy! We watched some comedian and I can’t think who it was. But there was a half an hour television show that a lot of us watched. And then I often went to bed before my kids did if they had a lot of homework to do.
So our schedule was pressing and long, from early in the morning until I would collapse into bed, usually soak in a bathtub, and collapse into bed at 8.30. And Mimi would often sleep with me.
Jonathan: Let me ask you one question.
Laura: There’s another thing that fit into that schedule every day and that was at least four of my children had private lessons and there was a practice record on the refrigerator door. And we would sit down and agree how many half hours a week they had to do. And if they did that number, and I think it might’ve been six half hours, then I paid. If they didn’t do that many, then they have to pay for their own lessons. Now, I don’t know where the kids would get their money from even to do that.
Jonathan: Yeah. I don’t think you enforce that very strictly, quite honestly.
Laura: Well, but the truth is, If anybody lied and they only practice 15 minutes and they X the 30, there would always be witnesses. So you knew that your, your siblings could refute you if you weren’t honest.
Okay.
Jonathan: So when you made the move from Underwood to Caledonia, what were the reactions of your kids? Where was there? Were people overjoyed or was there a mixed thing about being dislocated from maybe neighborhood friends? Do you recall anything like that?
Laura: Well, it was happening at the time that one, Bobby’s treats in his lunch were being stolen regularly, and I told you that story, how we injected hot sauce into one of the Twinkies.
It was also a time when, let’s see, we would not have a big hot breakfast. Bobby told me that every bratwurst sandwich that I ever made him, he threw away.
Jonathan: Was it Braunschweiger?
Laura: Yes, it was Braunschweiger. And Heidi would sometimes have a night game schedule, and that was very hard to do because the rest of the kids had to get home. I remember Bob Vanderkamp bringing Heidi home after a game when none of us had gone to watch it.
And also I remember Connie’s flute lessons were five o’clock and so that was a very long time for everybody to be either waiting in the car or maybe go to the park or somewhere where we could sit because she wouldn’t be done until what was really our dinner time.
Jonathan: Yeah. But your recollection of the kids, there was an appeal to being on a big parcel of land and the river.
Laura: Oh, yes. And particularly the wildlife, they got a big kick out of the wild bunnies. And we would see deer, but the snakes and bunnies, they would catch for me for my classroom.
And very soon the house next door, that lot was sold and they were building too. So we had neighbors on both sides quite soon after we moved, but then nothing beyond that. There were a lot of empty land all along the river, all the way to 68th Street. That all has developed since also going out to 84th Street.
Jonathan: In context, your brother Ted purchasing his parcel and building.
Laura: Okay.
It was very apparent. I had a very good builder and living on the river appeal to Ted and Joe. And I don’t know who they bought that piece of land from, but they immediately, Ted started drawing the plans for his house, which was very complicated. It was multi-level with many windows and balconies and decks on the outside. And he liked my builder a lot. And so my builder built his house too.
They were very happy there, except They were not content with the school system for their boys. And they really were attracted to Ada Christian School.
And ultimately, that’s why they ended up buying a place on the river in Ada and selling the one out here. Now, they did that when their boys were just school age. I don’t remember because of our busy schedule, our children and their children interacting very much at all.
Ted reluctantly gave up his dream house plan because it was very complicated. That house has balconies and levels on the inside with windows overlooking on all four sides of the river and the woods.
So it was hard for him to give that up. At the same time, the school issue was the biggest reason. And then they happened to find this house on the river in Ada. And that’s when they didn’t have any trouble selling that house.
Jonathan: I sense that Ted did that to a certain extent as a protective brother to you. Have you thought of it that way? No.
Laura: No, Ted was never that way toward me. Okay. Okay.
Jonathan: I just, I know he intervenes sometimes with Scott and he, I think there were a couple of times where he, he tried to talk sense into various children of yours, but yeah. Okay.
Laura: I remember asking him to counsel a couple of times with kids. I don’t remember the details, but I’m sure Scott was part of it.
Jonathan: Okay. Yeah. Good. Well, I just, I knew that, you know, that you’re talking about the, the, and the builder’s name fails me now.
Laura: If you said it, I’d recall it, but, um I’ll say, I’ll think of it when I go through the files, but I know the cost of the house was $18,000. And Ten came from the sale of the lot next door and eight came from my dad. So I really had no savings to even begin this project with. I owed my dad $8,000 with no charge on interests.
And I paid that back systematically in small amounts while teaching.
But at the same time, now dad was, he did not pay any alimony, but he did pay child support faithfully until Mimi turned 18. So that income made a huge difference in how I could afford expensive music lessons, expensive instruments, even Appliances for my new house. They all had to be built. I didn’t move any appliances from the old place.
Jonathan: Even that, that ringer washer.
Laura: Yep.
Jonathan: Those are big money nowadays.
Laura: Are they?
Well, at any rate, you can imagine how much washing I had to do with eight kids.
Jonathan: Sure.
Laura: So those were things that would get done at night after supper. The schedule was pretty stiff.
And then I would have teachers meetings, but the one time a year which we always look forward to was the teachers convention in Chicago. And we did this when we were on Underwood and when we were out here. And because I was given funds for the hotel, we stayed at the Come on. What’s the name of the hotel?
Jonathan: Parker house or something like that.
Laura: Yeah. Yeah.
And that’s where Connie got her head caught in the revolving door.
And what would happen is I would go to one day’s worth of meetings so that I was officially attending, but I’d hardly even go at all. we would do the city of Chicago and we would always come home the second day by noon, we’d be heading back to Michigan. So my attending at teachers’ conventions was very poor.
Jonathan: We can edit this out of the recording to protect the guilty here.
Laura: Well, at any rate, I do think that my kids had happy memories of teacher convention days, because I never just left them home and went to the convention, never.
And in the meantime, my kids had their own schedules that were increasing.
Jonathan: I’m wondering if I could pause you. Would you be open to? me posing a couple of questions to you, because now we’re starting to get into even kids in high school and almost transitioning, right? Yes, go ahead. So because we’ve never really talked about very much like your your
thoughts about being a parent and what it was, what it meant to you to have an infant and a toddler. What do you, do you recall what your personal experience was like for that?
Laura: Well, children have always, always tickled me. They have fascinated me. That’s why I love teaching at such a low grade level too. because there was always comments that were funny. There were always situations where they needed me badly.
Situations where I was very proud of them. I’ll never forget you and Bob. playing for a senior group at Fuller Avenue Church. You played a duet and you guys played beautifully.
In fact, it was during this time that Aunt Connie was married and we made a quartet of Mimi, Heidi, Scott, Bob and Jody. But you and Bob played a duet, and it was beautiful. And when you finished and everybody stood up and clapped, then whoever was the spokesman for the group stood up and said, Laura, would you allow your sons to play another piece, which seemed so bizarre to me that they had to have my permission. Apparently people thought I had a lot of control.
So I mean, for me to, I mean, you ask the boys, first of all, do they have something ready? I had no idea.
And and would they like to play another one? You know, why didn’t they ask them? So they asked me if they had permission.
Yeah. Right now, Fuller is having their 75th anniversary celebration. And that’s why Daryl and Jan Riesinger came to my house last Monday. Did you happen to see on Facebook pictures that they put a picture of the two of them and me in the middle? And it has triggered a number of comments from former students. So look on Facebook.
Jonathan: Well, this observation you just made about you make it ingest, I think about they thought that you were in control or you had you had the directions for your children. But how would you describe to that to that person, maybe your parenting philosophy?
Laura: With that many children, I surely had to have a house operated with rules.
However, my children also bounced control among them when I was out of the picture. There would be things that
For example, snacks.
They didn’t always ask me. But if they helped themselves, there was somebody else usually observing who would say, can I have some too? So there were occasions when my kids enforced the rules and made minimal decisions about how we live together. And I don’t think that each of you resented the other’s participation in those kinds of things. I do think that if anyone and particularly Scott was supposedly taking drum lessons and practicing and never did, that a chart where everybody could see was offensive, was a public within the family display of non-committed.
And so I never, ever felt that that came from
Mimi, Heidi, Bob, or you.
And I always felt that Betsy was the singer, but she, in many ways, she wanted to play basketball like Heidi, but she didn’t have the commitment and she wasn’t good enough. And she didn’t have private lessons like everybody else. So she was one of those suckers who ended up sitting in a car waiting for the food lesson to be done. I mean, there were many occasions when her not playing an instrument proved to be annoying, hard for her.
Jonathan: But what I hear you saying about philosophy then is it was you counted on some of the kids to self-manage and there was, it was a by necessity probably with all that was going on that there was accountability and your expectation was that through practice sheets and those sorts of manifestations, there was, you’re expecting each of us to be accountable or is that, am I interpreting what you’re saying correctly?
Laura: Yes, but OK, think of things like three jobs for a half job. Who decided it was a half job? You did some some. Yes, yes.
What other rules did we have? We had we. I know that Saturday mornings everybody had something they had to do that it was assigned and I don’t remember exactly who was assigned to do what, but the whole house got covered and the laundry was folded. And if it was all done by noon, we all went out to a Chinese place for lunch. And that was our reward for getting our lives in our house in order for the week. So Saturday morning was a very busy, we didn’t sleep in and everybody had the same job from week to week. And that’s how we kept the house clean, the laundry on top. I would probably get groceries on the way back from lunch.
And I had a freezer, so I would do cooking ahead for the coming week that Saturday afternoon.
Jonathan: Yeah. All right. I got another question for you. And this is, again, high level. overall over your over all your kids. What were the main points of friction between you and your children and how did you resolve them?
Laura: Boy, that’s a hard question.
One thing that really what bothered me was fighting in the car.
You were sitting very close to each other and your instruments were in the way and everything. I was driving in a suburban, so that would be three levels of seats. But to drive many miles with no arguments was not always the case.
Jonathan: That was stressful. You’re talking about hungry, angry people, angry people at the end of the day and that sort of thing. And whatever, somebody had a bad day. That’s confined space.
Laura: Yeah. Well, look at all the things we had to carry besides people.
Jonathan: Right.
Laura: All of the string instruments, they all had to go in the car.
Jonathan: These are just open-ended questions. You can do with them whatever you like.
So the question is, what were some of your favorite things to do with your children? And I know travel is one of them. And we’re going to talk about that at length. But let’s leave that one for another day. Tell me some other things.
Laura: I’ll tell you right now. Chips you wanna was the one of the most favorite things for me and for all of the kids. And that was always early summer. We’d every year we did it.
Another one was the place in Canada.
Come on.
Jonathan: Let’s check for festival.
Laura: Yes. Yes.
And how I afforded tickets for all of you, I don’t know.
Jonathan: Well, the hotel accommodations too. I don’t know that we can’t, did we?
Laura: We didn’t stay in a hotel. We stayed with a family. And every time we went with the same lady. And she didn’t have enough beds for everybody, but couches and carpets She’d always put us up. And I think that there was a silly fee, like 25 or $30. And that’s where we always stayed. And I don’t know how I found her in the first place, but I think it was somehow on the computer I got the address.
But we never stayed in a hotel, never.
Jonathan: What other, what other favorite things do you remember things around the house? Maybe.
Laura: Well, sometimes I’d make popcorn and then we’d watch something on television together.
Um, we always watch TV downstairs. And we only had an indoor antenna on the machine. We never had anything out on the roof. So that must have limited our choices of what to watch. But I remember all of us sitting downstairs. In fact, that’s why there are three little stools stacked on top of each other down there now. Those little black stools. Right. That was so that we could accommodate everybody sitting down in that little room. And that’s where we watched something and had popcorn. Now that would probably never be on a school night, but it might be a Sunday or Saturday night. And I think that It’s surprising when I look back how often we did the fast food thing where hamburgers were 15 cents. Sometimes that was the best answer to on the way home eat.
Jonathan: It’s funny, I don’t remember that happening that much. I think your recollection of it is more frequent than mine. Though, I mean, I remember you talking about the restaurants adjacent to each other, but I don’t remember eating out that much.
Laura: Well, what I cooked on Saturday was enough for at least three big dinners during the week.
Jonathan: And did you have, making, sandwiches for the next day. Was that enlisting the help of other kids? Did you have helpers in the kitchen making big meals?
Laura: No. No, I don’t remember that at all.
Jonathan: What about clean up?
Laura: Well, that’s the first time that I enjoyed having a dishwasher. Never ever had that before.
So clean up I think that it sort of became a habit when the kids got up from the table, they brought their plates and slid them into the dishwasher.
Jonathan: Okay.
Laura: You know.
Jonathan: Yeah. I just can’t imagine like having raised three here to to be responsible for all the things you did mom that just the the cart around the working all day you had you had papers to grade at night and then That’s a lot on one person.
Laura: Well, then you add to that that I was continuing my college education while I was teaching. So at least one night a week, I’d have to go to class.
I’m sure that I made sure the kids were all home before I went back to Calvin.
John Vandenberg was the one who got me help to pay for my college education.
Jonathan: You mentioned that, yeah. And let me make sure I understand. That happened more while we were still at Underwood, right? Yes, yes.
Laura: By the time we were living at Thornapple, That was when K Block begged me to teach those weekend classes. And so I went down to Kalamazoo, Michigan State, to take a class with the idea that I was going to teach what this man was doing on weekends and what K Block was going to do. I taught his class after I went to his class for one semester. I hated it.
Jonathan: And it was stupid. Was this Underwood or was that transitioning into Caledonia?
Laura: This was Thornhill.
Jonathan: OK. I’m just trying to understand the timeline. So that’s early 70s, 72, 73, 74. Yeah.
Laura: OK. Yeah. When I got my master’s degree, when I got my Calvin degree, I could not really afford the cost of the gown, the fees for graduation. They just mailed them to me.
Jonathan: OK. Yeah, the certificates.
Laura: I did not go to the ceremonies.
Jonathan: Right. Your parents knew of your accomplishments, though. You feel confident they were proud of you, I think, huh?
Laura: Yes. Yes. Yeah.
Jonathan: All right, I got an open-ended question for you. For what kinds of help or advice did your children turn to you as they got older?
Laura: Well, always, if there were essays they had to write, I had to read them, and particularly correcting the grammar parts.
We had an issue with a neighbor right behind us. His name was Brian, and he and Ted clashed.
And my kids, the other kids, would report to me the kinds of things that would happen between Ted and Brian as they walked back and forth to Oakdale. So my kids were on Ted’s side and they couldn’t stand our neighbors directly behind us.
We had neighbors across the street, the Gritters, who had a young boy that they really liked, who they kind of protected because there was some clashing as you walked to school. So I remember they’re sticking up or waiting for him to come down his driveway so that they walk together. I remember there being occasions when they protected the youngest gritter boy. But I also remember that my children were particularly friends with the black students in their classes.
And that was in an era when the whole attitude about blacks was not very healthy.
The truth is a couple of my children ended up having their best friends being black.
Scott being one of them.
Jonathan: Well, kind of continuing in this vein about like advice that you gave your children. Can you think of rites of passage that your children went through that you think back on and know you helped them?
And I can think of one that you did for me, and I’ll get you started. You helped me with a no interest loan on my first house, kind of like your dad. And I wouldn’t have been able to, I think you co-signed that loan. I know I paid you back, but I could not have done that without you. And that came at a critical time in my life. What other, are there other things that, and I thank you for that, but maybe there’s other examples that come to mind of ways that at a rite of passage for your children, you were there.
Laura: Well, I was always there for Betsy because Betsy was irresponsible and I did it for the sake of Jonathan. So I would, be jumping in to save her from bills or from cleanup messes or from overnights when she would have neglected Jonathan and I kept him. I spent a lot of time mothering Jonathan in his early years.
And, and ultimately when Betsy was living just off of Kalamazoo in one of those little houses and working for Bob. And Jonathan would come home from school and there was a dog there and there would be dog poop all over the house. And Jonathan would be alone there until maybe six in the day. And Heidi and I really worried about Jonathan. And after confronting Betsy repeatedly, Heidi and I reported this whole situation to Child Protective Services.
And Heidi and I did this together. And of course, Betsy was fuming about it.
Jonathan: What a wrenching experience to do as her mother and grandmother.
But at any rate, you have helped with eight children. You have helped all of us in different ways.
I think rites of passage, you’ve been there, Mom, hey?
Laura: Well, I don’t know. I think that the thing that happened because I would be gone in the evening to classes because of their distant relationships with their dad, that my children developed a responsibility for themselves quite early.
And I think that they probably saw some
weeping and frustration and anger in me through this because it took me a while to realize why dad didn’t come home at night.
And as these things started to come to light and I understood them and the consequences, I’m sure that my children had the same hurts that I did.
And also it was an age when the word divorce in a Christian Reformed Church was absolutely out of it. And my kids knew that as much as I did. So I’m thinking that that would have been a shame on me and on them.
Jonathan: Well, mom, it’s go ahead.
Laura: That’s why.
escaping this whole community and going camping and roughing it was happy escape for me and for my kids. It was a running away from a lot of pain.
Jonathan: I’ve never heard you convey it quite like that, Mom. I mean, your love for travel and the campers, you’ve talked at length about that, but never have I heard you express it as an escapism.
Laura: It was, and it was an escape. It was something to look forward to, where we didn’t deal with any community, anything.
And even Dad.
Jonathan: Mm-hmm.
Mom, this is really wonderful to talk with you about these things and that, and the hectic nature of those years and the refuge of when you talk about what a peaceful place Thornapple is for you, it kind of makes better sense to me now how significant it is for you. Cause it was a, it was the thing maybe that helped helped you keep it all together, right? I mean, with eight kids and having to work a full-time job and keep the wheels on the bus going on there, an ordinary person might not have been up to that task, and you were, so thank you.
Laura: Well, you know what? I think that
Taking on the responsibilities of raising kids and teaching was also a way of escaping the truth about me and dad.
It was a scene where I didn’t have to think about the hurt. I was too busy with everything else.
Jonathan: Yeah.
Yeah. Is there a point where you stopped, where it slowed down? And I mean, I think of the kids going off to college and life becoming less hectic. Was there a point where you had time to reflect on it? And have you been able to make sense of it all?
Laura: Well, I loved teaching. And when I retired, to go into volunteering. I just filled my life with that.
But by then, the children were gone. Mimi was in college.
So in many ways, my job could have been an escape for me, a reason to think about other things. And my volunteering was the same. that I just, I had happy things in my life, I did.
Jonathan: I get it.
Your network, mom, the number of people you have influenced and interacted with in your life is amazing. Your connection with people, hey?
Laura: Well, okay, right now,
One of the reasons that Daryl and Jan came out for lunch was they still go to Fuller Avenue. And Fuller Avenue is having their 75th anniversary to do. And they were asked for my address by the committee that’s planning this thing. And so they gave my address, but then they came out to talk to me about it. And I told them, I am so happy at Le Gray because of the music, because of the wonderful messages. And every time I read the bulletin about what are offered to our young people, I wish that I had exposed my children because our time at Fuller Avenue Church was not a happy time. I remember that I would walk out of church and people would not talk to me. And I felt like they were looking at me as if to say, oh, you poor thing. But they would talk to the kids. And I remember one time, one of you told me that someone came up and said, did your dad come to your house last week? Well, that infuriated me because I didn’t feel church support. There was a change of pastors there that was significant, too, because of the one that I originally had. I liked a lot and I can’t think of his name.
Jonathan: He was a pastor there for a while.
Laura: Yes, yes. But at any rate, they didn’t offer. Well, it was by by and large, an elderly congregation. So their youth groups were very small. And they had a prop from Calvin that did some program that my kids couldn’t stand him. And so my kids never really got involved in the youth program at Fuller Avenue Church. It wasn’t welcoming for us. That’s why I told them I do not intend to go to their anniversary, Huda, whatever.
Jonathan: Got you.
Laura: Yeah.
Well, at any rate, hey, we’ve done our year, our hour.
Jonathan: Yeah. That’s good. That’s good. So I’m going to stop recording here, but just a second.
Laura: Let me make sure I do this right.