3 - Siblings
Jonathan: All right, now we’re off to the races here. Today is April 19, 2025.
This is our third conversation, Mom. And since the last time we spoke, you had a birthday. Is it true?
Laura: Yes, I’m 87.
Jonathan: That’s awesome. What did you do on your birthday?
Laura: Well, The day before Aunt Connie came over and she and I went to Uncle Ted’s because my birthday is the 14th, Ted’s is the 17th, and Connie’s is the 20th. So within six days of April, all our birthdays. So we sort of celebrated the three of us together. That was the day before.
Jonathan: That’s neat. What did you do to celebrate? Where did you go? You went to Ted’s house?
Laura: Yeah. I had made a little cake and yeah, we just visited there a little while. Ted is for his memory is slipping and and yet when you visit with him, he’s very cordial and humorous and it was, it was a nice visit.
Jonathan: It sounds like a wonderful, wonderful day.
Laura: Yes, it was. Of course I was called all day long by family members. And actually, Amanda, my granddaughter’s birthday is the very same day as mine. So I talked with her and grandson Jonathan is the day before on the 13th. There are many April birthdays in the family. Gene is coming up soon too.
Jonathan: Well, that sounds like a special birthday for you. I’m glad you got lots of calls. to spend time with your brother and your sister.
Well, brothers and sisters is kind of the topic of what we’re going to cover today and some questions for you. And all about siblings. And well, my first question for you is what do you remember about the first time you saw your younger siblings? Can you remember anything of significance there?
Laura: Well, Myna Kingma was a member of my dad’s church and a very close family member, and she lived in Patterson, New Jersey. And when my mother was taken to the hospital, she came to stay with us. So in those days a mother that having a baby stayed in the hospital four or five days, And during that time, Mina helped to fix food, but dad was the cook. And so he did most of the cooking and he stayed home with us most of the time. He did not spend a lot of time at the hospital. So when he came home with mother and the baby, Mina was still there. I remember we were all sitting in the living room and when they walked in, And I also remember that the baby crib and everything was on the second floor. So she very quickly took his bag of stuff and the baby and nobody got to hold the baby that first visit.
Jonathan: And so now I want to make sure I understand. This was your brother Ted, my brother Paul. Okay. Okay.
Laura: And brother Paul and my, I do not remember my, I do not remember bring the when they brought Ted home or Connie home. Okay. Now Connie would have been born yet in Philadelphia, I think. And I think Ted may have been too, because I don’t remember a baby coming home in Patterson except for Paul. Now, That would have been when I was, let’s see, seven years old.
That’s when they brought Ted home from the hospital. And I do remember that because I remember my Nakima was there watching us when they brought the baby in the house.
Jonathan: I remember meeting Mina. She’s quite a character, something about sewing machines and revenue engines kind of thing. But I remember her visiting us at Thorn Apple so many years ago.
Laura: Oh my goodness.
You have an amazing memory.
Jonathan: All right, so let’s think of the, walk us through your siblings about how many years apart you are, their names, and then I was hoping you would talk a little bit about how your place in the birth order may have affected you and just reflections about the size of your family. Was your family too big? Was it too small? Any reflections you have on that, but.
Laura: Okay. My sister is three years younger than me. My brother Ted is two years younger than she is. And my brother Paul is two years younger than Ted. So that means that two, four, five, six, seven, within seven or short of eight years, we all were born. Now I was born in Baltimore. Connie was born in Philadelphia. I think Ted may have been born in Philadelphia because I think when we moved to New Jersey, Ted was already in the family. And my brothers, I remember them always getting along. I don’t think of fighting, arguing or wrestling. They were pals, and that grew over the years, particularly as they got into sports together. So by the time they were in high school, they were in the front page of the paper all the time because they were Eastern Christians basketball stars, both of them. And I think there became a rivalry because of that, keeping track of who got the most points or retrievers in a basketball game. It was mostly basketball. I think that they played a little soccer, too. But basketball was the season that governed my house. My parents, my dad went to a number of the games. My mom didn’t. But she was always very interested in the newspaper, the Patterson General News. So the boys were pals in athletics. When we moved to Michigan, they sort of went their separate ways. And it was governed by the boys that were their friends, the little circle that these, because I don’t remember when they were in Grand Rapids that they played sports together or that they did many things together. Meanwhile, my sister Connie, she was always blonde and curly and beautiful. And I guess that I don’t remember arguing with her, but I do remember that she would borrow things of mine that made me angry, particularly If I left for school before she did, she would get into my clothes and I wouldn’t realize that she was wearing them until we came home together. So that was a cause of arguments between my sister and me.
Jonathan: It’s fascinating just to hear that. I’ve never heard that before. How would that service? Would you confront her, or would you talk to your parents about it? That just sounds like a very unusual predicament.
Laura: I would surely publicly complain maybe at the supper table, or certainly to my mother. And what would happen? What would happen in that? Nothing as far as announcing the rules or a punishment of any kind.
We were the same size in many respects. I remember arguing about her helping herself to my things, but I don’t remember any other reason for fighting. I do remember that I annoyed my siblings when I had to practice the piano, particularly because That was the time that the cartoons were on the TV in the afternoon after school. So I don’t remember Connie having piano lessons, but I think she did. I don’t remember it, but the boys didn’t. And I was serious about it in New Jersey.
Jonathan: And mom, I’ve got a whole series of questions for you about music because it’s been such a big part of your life. So we’re going to talk about that in depth in a little bit, but just want to get you off to that.
Laura: OK, we walked to school together and it was down the hill to 4th Street School and that 4th Street School was the playground was right against the Church where my father was a pastor, but he never took us there. We always walked and This would be you Connie and Ted possibly or yes, okay Probably this is in Patterson Yes I think that Because we left Patterson in when I was in seventh or eighth grade already, seventh grade. That would mean Paul had started school already, maybe just kindergarten before we left New Jersey.
Then years later when mom and dad went back to New Jersey, both boys went to Eastern Academy, which was the Christian high school, and connected with all their old friends. And that’s when athletics became a big part of their life.
Jonathan: That’s great. So this is really fascinating to hear, Mom. I want you to, if you can, share memories you have of the things that you would play with your siblings? Were those board games, indoor games, outdoor games? How would you, as a group of four, entertain yourselves?
Laura: We didn’t play four. It would be two and two, really. I think we played old maid cards. And outdoors, We didn’t have Frisbee in those days, but we did have croquet in our backyard.
And I remember that my dad would set up the little arches that you had to hit the balls through. And that would be when I was quite a bit older. That would have been close to when we moved to Grand Rapids. The croquet went up at the same time that we all had that huge garden of tulips. And I think you see pictures with all the tulips there. During that period of time, we wouldn’t play because we were afraid of hitting into the garden. The garden was the cause of a lot of publicity just because it was during the war and the Netherlands churches that had received all the coats and sweaters and things that my dad’s church collected sent back all these hundreds of tulip bulbs. So when they were coming up, We wouldn’t be playing in the yard or with walls or anything that would go into the garden. And once they were up, always the newspaper came to take pictures. The janitor of the church maintained the garden and he would hire me to help with gathering the weeds. And that’s the one time when I’d earned a nickel here and there. So our yard was pretty governed by the coming up of the tulips and then the blossoming, which that was a good month of the spring. And the garage had only room for one car. We never had two cars, but we did have bikes in the garage.
I’ll never forget. When I got my first bike, Grandpa Gezon gave it to me.
I must have been maybe a fourth grader. I really never had experience riding on a bike.
And we lived at the, our block was at the bottom of a little hill.
So I walked the bike up to the top of the hill and held onto a mailbox and sat on the seat and coasted it down the hill, holding on tight. I wasn’t pedaling at all, ran dead into my mother’s rock garden, really got scraped all over the place. But worse than that.
Excuse me. I dinged up the front fender of my brand new bike that Grandpa Kazan gave me. So that’s one of my clear memories of being a child on Halden Street.
Jonathan: Sure. What color was your bike?
Laura: Blue.
Kind of native blue, not a darker blue.
Jonathan: Oh, you want to stop and get some water?
Laura: Yeah, I better get a cough drop here.
Um,
I had a girlfriend who lived on the same block, but the opposite. If you could draw a line from my corner to the other corner, triangularly, she lived there. And I have to walk it to go there. And my parents insisted if I ever was doing that, I had to inform them where I was going. And I never could stay there very long. They wanted me to bring her back to play at my house.
Jonathan: And did that happen often? Like it was just throughout the week? No, it didn’t. OK. Why do you think that? Why in retrospect, why do you think there were those parameters put on it.
Laura: Well, my folks always want to know where I was, where we were. And yet my mother, I don’t ever remember my mother coming out in the yard and calling for us. It would be a rule that we had to follow and If it was time to eat, my dad would call us in.
Jonathan: Okay. And what would happen if you were laid or what were the repercussions?
Laura: Um, I don’t remember it happening because we were very strict about where we were supposed to stay. If I went to that friend’s house, it was never for very long. Tom, what is very long? Not an hour. And maybe only more likely in the summertime than during the school year. During the school year, our schedule was pretty regulated. And by the time we got home, I was allowed to ride my bike without crossing the street on the Halden Avenue, not on 8th Street, not on the hill.
And sooner or later, my siblings also got bikes. And I do not remember that any of us rode our bikes very long distances at all. We never rode them to school. We never went down the hill all the way. There was a little, it wasn’t even a park. It was just a vacant lot.
I can’t even picture. It was within that block area. It was a big block. I’m guessing on 8th Street there were 12 homes. So that’s how long the house would be that way. Going up the hill there are probably eight homes.
So that gives you a feel of how big the block was. We never crossed the street with our bikes.
Jonathan: Your description of that would be interpreted by other people maybe as parents were very restrictive of your freedoms and were depressive comes to mind. But did you view it that way? Do you view it that way now? What is your opinion of what your parents were doing back then?
Laura: I didn’t think of it ever as restrictive. I never And I think most of my friends had the same kind of rules. They stuck close to home. During the summer, it was a little bit different.
But during the school year, the time to even play outside was limited.
We would walk home from school. So if school was out by 3 or 3.30, we wouldn’t get home till quarter after 4. There would be a snack to eat. maybe a little homework or otherwise reading a library book. Supper would be 5.30.
Sometimes we’d watch a little cartoon once. Well, no, we didn’t even have a TV in New Jersey. That would have been, yeah.
Jonathan: So thinking of your parents for a minute. Do you feel like your parents treated all of your siblings the same, or did your parents have stated or unstated comparisons that they made between you and your siblings? Any reflections like that?
Laura: Well, the rules were the same. The punishments were the same. Hardly ever were they physical punishments. I think I got spanked a couple times by my dad. But the punishments were freedom. I think more than anything else, it was go to your room and go to bed.
And I never felt they were playing favorites, ever.
And I thought my little brother Paul was so cute.
Jonathan: Tell us more about that.
Laura: Well, because he was so little, I guess.
It was just that.
Coming home as a baby, that was kind of a big deal in our family. And I think that.
My parents encouraged that because they thought he was cute, too. However,
When we were in Grand Rapids, Paul got ringworm on his head. It was right at the time when he was to start kindergarten. And my parents really didn’t want to send him to the Christian school because they wanted to do kindergarten twice. First time with his whole head was shaved.
And so,
I think in that way, they tried to pamper him because he couldn’t mix with friends. There were so many rules about the contagiousness of ringworm that he was separated from all of us kids. And this lasted a good half a year of the school year. It was, it was hard on him.
Jonathan: Well, you may, you shared vivid memories of when Paul was brought home, Minah Kingma’s involvement, that sort of thing. You may have just been too young to remember, certainly your sister Connie, but also your brother Ted. But do you think your parents?
Laura: No, I don’t remember. I didn’t remember their come home either, either of them.
Jonathan: Sure, sure.
Thinking of your siblings, how How well do you feel you know your siblings, and how well do you think they know you?
Laura: Well, I think that we all knew each other very well. But Paul, in his adult years, when he was married,
He was much more, he had always been much more affectionate than Ted. Hugs and kisses and expression of love. Paul was always that way. And I think that there was an occasion where Paul and Dottie took care of you kids. And I went with dad to Cleveland Clinic And I sensed that he won the hearts of my kids, too. They really enjoyed Paul. However, they didn’t have children.
And he was a king of the rules. And so one of the things they did when he was here taking care of you guys was raking and starting to fix the backyard. There was still no grass, no nothing. And he was kind of bossy when it came to that chore. I remember my kids complaining. But at the same time, my kids loved it when Paul and Dottie would come and visit. And we never had that kind of occasion with Ted and Joe. So Paul and Dot endeared themselves to us much more easily than Ted did.
Jonathan: Sure. I remember Paul and Dot being in Caledonia there. Yeah, they have the memories of working in the backyard and getting the rocks out. And I think something about Paul insisting things not be hidden under the beds, like you didn’t, he was trying to whip us into shape from a plan on this standpoint or something maybe, but yeah. I’m gonna pause for just a second. Tina and Emily just came back in from camping. Give me 30 seconds, okay?
Alright, back with you. So any reflections and this may or may we may have already covered this, but how did your relationship with your siblings evolve or change over time? And have you ever wished you were closer geographically or emotionally with your siblings?
Laura: Well, I have become more and more emotionally close to my sister Connie with every year. And My brother Ted never really worked very hard at the relationships with siblings. So although I know he loves me and I love him, we don’t have many fond memories of that relationship. When Paul would come to Michigan, Connie, Ted, Paul, and I would go to that restaurant in Caledonia, and I can’t think of the name of it right now. Yeah, and so that became a tradition for the four of us to get together without our siblings or children, just the four of us. And that happened in our later years, and we all treasured that.
Jonathan: Nice. Nice. I remember you doing that.
Have you ever envied the life of one of your siblings, and why?
Laura: No, not at all. Not at all.
I felt sorry for Aunt Connie because of the way Uncle Abe ruled that house.
Ted and Joe, they had very nice boys. In fact, when they lived two few houses away from us, I really enjoyed that they were near. But that didn’t last very long at all. They sold the house and moved to Ada. And now what’s interesting is those two boys are in touch with me more now than they were when they lived here. Uh, I, I either, I get emails or birthday wishes or it’s not often, but it’s regular. They don’t forget. And I treasure that, that that relationship is still warm.
Jonathan: That’s a testament to Ted and Joe raising their kids, right? I think and just the graciousness of those kids. Is it? Is it?
Laura: Oh, those two boys, those two sons are lovely boys. They are. And they’re they’re thoughtful to their parents.
And of course, particularly Joe, Oh, what a wild grandmother she is. She talks about them all the time. She has their pictures everywhere, and she’s so proud of grandkids.
Jonathan: How many do they have now? I’ve kind of lost track.
Laura: Chris has only one. And Levi has two.
Jonathan: OK, TJ maybe. It’s not Levi, it’s TJ, right?
Laura: That’s what I meant, TJ.
Jonathan: Okay. Okay. All right. Maybe just a couple more questions for today and then we’ll wrap up.
Laura: Wait a minute.
Jonathan: Tell me.
Laura: TJ has three now I think because he’s got a daughter. Okay. I can’t keep track. Okay.
Jonathan: What memories do you have of a favorite toy or a cherished object from your early years? Did you play with dolls? You mentioned your bike. It sounds like a special thing, but are there other special objects?
Laura: This also came from Grandpa Kazan. It was a Cinderella doll. Uh, very fancily dressed. It wasn’t a baby that you would take the clothes off and you’d play like wrap it in a blanket and put it in a crib. It was a fancy dancey doll. And I just had it set in my bedroom. I didn’t actually play with it. I was just proud of it.
Jonathan: When your friend from across the street would come and visit you, you would admire it together, that sort of thing?
Laura: I don’t remember that, but I do remember that was a gift that my grandpa gave to me and grandpa Gezon always remembered at Christmas time, some gifts and, and often it was games.
Jonathan: Like a board game or backgammon or something like that.
Laura: Yeah. Oh, there your picture again. I lost you for a picture for a minute.
There you are. Well, at any rate, I confess that my memories are vague. I wish I knew more. And that’s why finding now letters I wrote to my mother It’s going to take me a long time to read through all this stuff. I have found gobs of things. But even finding those two books all of a sudden, oh, I remember how I loved them, how I read them and read them. And so I guess that looking for memories in all my junk might be…
I hear, I hear Tina.
Jonathan: they just came back in from.
Laura: Well, at any rate, hey, you better go see your daughter and your wife.
Jonathan: Good.
Alright, so I’m going to pause the recording and we’ll resume this next week, Saturday. Let me hold on just a second. Let me make sure I do this correctly.
Laura: Okay, now you said your Saturday