2 - Ted and Ruth
Jonathan: OK, so now we’re recording.
Laura: You see what I’m wearing?
Jonathan: I do. That’s good. I’m glad.
Well, it’s April 12, 2025. And we’re having a second part of our conversation. There seems to be a little bit of a delay here a little bit. But can you hear all right, Mom?
Laura: Yes, I can.
Jonathan: Great. All right, so last week when we talked, we covered some ground about the very early days for you. And in today’s call, I’m hoping to ask you some questions about your parents and maybe think a little bit more about Patterson, New Jersey and some of those early memories. Does that sound okay?
Laura: Yes.
Jonathan: Good. So about your parents, if somebody were writing a mini biography about each of them, what would it say?
Laura: Well, it would say my mother made a humongous change in personality from being the daughter of a wealthy businessman who owned a grocery store. She had a car to drive to college. None of the other friends did. And she was the best honky-tonk piano player she played all by ear. So she got invited to all the parties. She was really a party girl. And after graduating and getting a one-year job teaching all eight grades that she failed at, Uncle Ben offered to take her to Florida just to get her away from the shame she was feeling at failing her job. And that changed my mother completely.
Now, my mother was very smart. She worked for the government. She also was a teacher in New Jersey, and she was librarian of a big school system. So she was a valuable employee, but she did not talk with people. And my father’s job demanded a minister’s wife who was very socially active within the congregation, which my mother never, ever was. The truth is she went to the church service. We always sat two rows from the back so she could make a quick escape. And when they sang the last hymn, she left so she didn’t have to talk with anybody in the church congregation.
She was very revered at her library job particularly, and it was interesting that during that time, both of her sons, Ted and Paul, were in the newspaper all the time for being basketball stars. So people would ask her about that sort of thing, and she was proud, but she wouldn’t bring it up. They would.
Meanwhile, my father was a very people person, and he was a jokester. He told lots of funny stories. And he was in demand not only in the congregation, but in the denomination at the time, the Reformed Church in America. And that was a move that was quite removed from Westminster Seminary, which originally was Presbyterian. And I had told you about the walkout where they did a public protest and left that church in Philadelphia. What’s interesting is the church that began there, most of the Westminster professors went to that church. And because my father was preaching there, it was kind of challenging knowing that his teachers were in the audience.
He was well-liked in the community and often did funerals and weddings that were not even in his church.
He was the main cook at our house. My mother made fudge and brownies. But my dad made all the meals. And he insisted that everybody should eat one egg a day. And that’s where I learned to hate eggs.
Because he was the cook, He also did the grocery shopping. I don’t remember my mother going to buy groceries. In those days, some things like milk were delivered at the house. And if there ever was a wedding or a funeral at the church with a lunch afterwards, dad would always come home with a lot of leftovers. There are certain recipes that I know were regular in dad’s cooking days.
Mom did all the cleaning. And she recruited us to help with that.
I remember mom and dad always sitting down in a little den in the parsonage on Halden Avenue. And watching - Oh, come on - A famous comedian at night. Jack….
Jonathan: I remember you talking about.
Laura: I don’t remember the name, but if I heard it, I know it was the right one. At any rate, that’s one thing they did together often after dinner was sit and watch this show on television. So we kids would watch it, too. But outside of that, we didn’t really watch much television. I don’t ever remember watching kids shows on TV. The TV was sort of dead. And we never had cable. We always had an antenna.
Jonathan: To hear you talking about the family, that was not exactly traditional. Your dad would be cooking back then. Wasn’t it more customary for the wife to be doing the cooking?
Laura: Yeah, absolutely. He was unusual in that way. And I don’t know anybody else in our family, including my brother, my sister’s husband, my mother’s brothers, the Jansma clan that at least that I knew – none of the men cooked. And I don’t know where dad learned it because when he was home, his mother cooked.
Jonathan: So was he, did he have a large repertoire of things that he cooked or do you remember mealtimes like that?
Laura: He cooked regular beef a lot of ways. Always lots of vegetables and cut up fruit. Mom might help with the cutting of the vegetables and fruits. But if there was any cooking involved, Dad did it. And he made sauces.
No desserts. So if we had a pie, he bought it at A&P. Outside of that, I think once a week he went to the grocery store. And I don’t remember going with him.
Jonathan: So I’m going to backtrack just a little bit and say, so when you think about your parents, was there one person that you think that really raised you or steered you through your early years? And what kind of influence did that person have on you?
Laura: Well, my dad certainly exposed me to public performance. And so he and I were a team when it came to that sort of thing. So I think that in that regard, because that became a great part of the rest of my life, playing the organ and accompanying choirs, that would have been my father’s influence. And what’s unusual is my mother was an amazing piano player. But she never taught me. I had lessons always that were paid for. And I started piano lessons in Patterson.
Jonathan: Yeah. So I get a clear sense that the experience you had with your dad in the church environment was really strong. And the meal preparation, those sorts of things. Talk to me a little bit about your mom’s influence on your life.
Laura: Well, my mom loved books and encouraged me to read. Once in a while, she’d have an opinion about something particularly political. But my mother always respected me and my siblings for our own opinions, the kinds of things that we learned in school. She was interested in them. She never, that I recall, was a rebuttal to any of the things that we studied.
She did once in a while refer back to friends that she had in college that she stayed in touch with. There were a couple of women particularly and watching mom with a warm friendship somewhere was encouraging to me because i never saw that happen at church and so, her quiet demeanor, her regard for music and books and her giving in to dad, allowing him to call the shots in most cases. That’s what I remember of my mom.
Jonathan: I had limited interactions with your mom, just kind of going out to the cottage a couple of times. And I always felt a little bit intimidated or she seemed a little bit severe, if that’s a right word for me to use. But that is maybe an unfair impression of her. I’d love to hear the ways in which your mom was nurturing to you or what your recollections are of her.
Laura: Well, I think when she was severe at the cottage, it was about cleaning up and order, wasn’t it? She was very, very orderly and things had to be put in their place. And so I think when you kids were there she was demanding of that kind of behavior from you, not leaving anything lying around. Um, I’m not sure that that was kind of the environment in our house, things had to be in place. And I never remember a pile of stuff on the floor or garbage piling up or anything like that. That was mom’s role in keeping the house going. So that’s probably why you remembered at the cottage, she was doing the same thing there.
Jonathan: Well, I think that when we were there – there were a whole horde of us. It must’ve been overwhelming for her to go from just being with Ted and her in the house to having cousins and all of us kids running around at once. It must’ve been disturbing for her a little bit or stressful anyway.
Laura: Yeah. Well, basically I just think of my mom always as quite shy. I know that she and dad had arguments once in a while, and I know she had opinions, but she never was in much of a situation where she had to oppose any of us kids or dad of our opinions, or she insisted on our way of life being orderly. And I got used to that.
Jonathan: How would you describe the differences between your parents? You’ve already talked about one being more outgoing, your dad, and your mom being more shy or introverted, but talk about their parenting styles or ways in which they complemented each other’s roles.
Laura: Well, if mom had a difference with one of our kids, she would talk, she would, before she dealt with it, she’d talk about it with dad. So implementing discipline was a joint effort with the two of them.
And both of them loved music. Both of them loved theater and live plays. Both of them liked one comedian on television that they watched faithfully, and I can’t think of a name right now.
So they agreed about many things, but there were things that they just didn’t talk about. And I don’t ever remember dad confronting mom, for example, about not participating in the church community. I never heard him argue with her about it. That was who she was and he accepted her for that.
Jonathan: That’s a strong indication of your dad’s character that he would accommodate that because I think as a minister most people would prefer that their wife be present and be a party to that.
So we’re going to talk about your siblings next time we call, but I’d love to hear your general impression about how your home life, the general atmosphere, and maybe how it differed from your friends.
Laura: Well I don’t know a lot of details about my friend’s life at home but I know that we had a set early bedtime that our schedule was very predictable the time we got up and when we went to bed. The discipline usually was grounding to our room. I never was allowed to have my friends invited to my house for a meal or overnight, but I did get to go a couple of times to slumber parties with my friends, but I would never imagine having them come to my house for that kind of an occasion. And my friends never were invited even for a meal or watch TV or something like that. So my friendships were up to me. My parents did not really help me with that. The other thing is because my dad and I were sort of a team when it came to services of all kinds, we left mom alone a lot.
In the meantime, my brothers were both very active in sports. My sister was….
Jonathan: We’re going to talk – may I interrupt you briefly – because I’m going to ask you a bunch of questions about them next time. Can we save those for the next call?
Laura: OK, yeah,
Jonathan: Let me ask you – How would you describe your parents’ relationship to each other? And did it evolve? Did your perception of it evolve a lot from how you thought about them as a couple as a child versus how you thought about them as an adult?
Laura: Well, I saw in all of my life living with them, I saw very little affection. They didn’t express it to each other in our presence hardly at all. And yet, if my dad was going to go away somewhere, like for a weekend to preach up in New England, I still remember my mom standing at the doorway watching the car leave.
But she was living a very quiet life within herself. And so I didn’t see her cry very much that I remember. I never saw dad cry. Oh, yes, I did. I saw him cry years later, but I’ll tell you that some other time. I played for a wedding and he did the service. and I was playing the postlude. It was a very big organ, and it was a showy piece. And when I finished, I got up and walked out, and my dad was sitting in – halfway up the – audience in a seat all alone, and he was crying. And my music had made him cry. That’s the only time I ever saw him cry.
Jonathan: Where was that? How old were you?
Laura: This was at the church on Plymouth…. Plymouth CRC. And I think it was my cousin Rich’s wedding. And I was by then a mother of at least six. And dad was not a local pastor. It was unusual that family members asked him to do a wedding.
As far as their emotions to each other, that was hidden too. I never really, I don’t remember big hugs and they loved each other. They stuck it out. But I think that, first of all, I think that my dad recognized that the girl he married was not the girl he went to college with. That he saw that enormous personality change happen because of her failure as a teacher. It’s interesting that with that history, that years later in New Jersey, she ended up teaching fourth grade. But the fourth grade job only lasted a couple of years until she graduated into librarian, and she loved that job. And then from the grade school, she moved to the high school, which had a much bigger library. So she just soaked up that kind of a career. And my dad had his own career, so they went their separate ways, so a good part of their days.
Jonathan: It’s sad a little bit to hear that they didn’t express or demonstrate affection for each other or that level of intimacy or closeness. I don’t know. You must have thought about that and wondered, too, as you grew up, why that was the case. And it’s just kind of unfortunate for both of them that they didn’t have that as part of their relationship.
Laura: Yep. I think you’re right. But the other thing is it could have happened at night between them, because we were in bed by 8 o’clock sound sleep. So they had a lot of time just with them.
Jonathan: Sure. OK, well, let me pivot then. Let’s see here.
So you’ve already talked about some of this, but I was hoping you would elaborate. This is about the talents and interests that your parents brought into the life of your family. And clearly your mom’s and your dad’s love of music is one of them. And it sounds like reading was another one of them. But were there other hobbies that they had or personal interests that they had that were source of dinner table conversations or things like that?
Laura: Um, dad played golf, but not a lot.
I’m trying to think what my mother’s, my mother loved cats. She spent a lot of time with her cats. Um, I can’t think of a hobby that my mom had it aside from playing jazz.
Jonathan: Okay. Well, if recollections of those occur, maybe we can come back to that. But let me step back and say, thinking of your childhood, what were some of the best times for your family, and what were some of the toughest times for your family?
Laura: Well, one of the toughest times was during the war. Because for one thing, Dad’s car died. And his job required that he visit the sick. He was borrowing a car for a while and then finally found a Hudson somewhere. I remember him driving that. It was a boxy-shaped car.
But what else did you want me to say?
Jonathan: Oh, just some of the best times for your family and maybe some of the toughest times.
Laura: Always the best times were at the cottage in Grand Haven. And that’s when we played Canasta with the whole family almost every night. And mom and dad were very good at the game and it was never just the kids, it was all of us. So mom would make popcorn and I can still picture the table we’d sit around and Canasta was a game that we all got very good at.
And that was an age when canasta was pretty popular. I don’t hear about it anymore. But I think that the cottage days when dad was home more and the water and the sand and it was just a nice place to be with no telephone. And we didn’t have mobile phones in those days.
Jonathan: So how many years growing up would you do that? Was that just for a couple of years in high school or more extended?
Laura: Oh, no, no, it was. It started around fourth grade, my dad, my dad was minister at a Third Reformed in Grand Rapids.
No, they bought it when they were still in Jersey. So it must have been third, fourth grade. And at any rate, my whole childhood I felt like that’s what we did in the summer. We didn’t camp or take many trips anywhere. Coming from New Jersey to Michigan, well, they go the Niagara Falls route or something like that. And they took us to New York City often into Washington DC for a historic review of notable people there.
But the cottage on Stickney Ridge was our real happiness. I used to make pot holders and go to the trailer park in Grand Haven and sell them for 25 cents a piece. And 25 cents was a lot of money in those days. So that was one of the happinesses in my summer. But we did a lot of things that were fun. Well, the other thing was the Haakes had a cottage, Winifred and Bill Haake, just down the street. And Win was my mother’s best friend. So the Haake kids and our kids had a lot of fun together too. And they were there a lot in the summertime. So it was nice for mom to have a friend close by.
Jonathan: So your parents bought a cottage in West Michigan. while you were still living in New Jersey. So that indicates to me that they were comfortable financially to be able to do that.
Laura: Yes. well, they all were always were frugal. And yeah, I don’t remember house payments, car payments. I don’t know if I should have known about that, but I wasn’t ever aware of any of that. So I have a hunch that they just paid cold cash.
Jonathan: Yeah. Your parents were pretty savvy with their finances and that was something, a responsibility that was held primarily by one or the other? Do you remember? It doesn’t sound like they talked about that at all, though.
Laura: No, not really. I never knew the details of the price of the cottage or who they bought it from or what they paid, how they paid.
Jonathan: And there were never really worries about about financial things. It doesn’t sound like.
Laura: No, there weren’t – not that I was aware of.
Jonathan: Well, that’s a blessing.
Laura: Well, you’ve got to remember one thing. They paid Christian school tuition all those years for four kids.
Jonathan: That was a lot of money back then. I know it is now. But OK, I’m going to pivot here. And maybe we’re closing in on the last questions. But when you think about your parents’ sense of style, What comes to mind?
Laura: My mother was very interesting in fashion, and she bought beautiful things.
My dad, if I picture him, it’s always in a suit.
But I’ve never been aware of his purchasing clothes. or shoes or anything like that. He just did it on his own. And I don’t think mom helped him. And she always bought things on sale, but she loved to go to New York for that reason. And I know she always wanted a nice leather purse and she had very good quality, beautiful clothes. But see, she was raised that way. Her parents were very wealthy, and so the sky was the limit when she was growing up at home. And I think her mom particularly babied her in that way.
Jonathan: I know more about your dad’s family than I do your mom’s. Your mom was one of multiple siblings. Tell me a little bit about her family.
Laura: Well, she had two brothers, Horace and Len. And they both lived in the East. And they were good friends with each other, but didn’t have much to do with my mom. But my mom made an effort to visit both of them when I was a child a number of times. Her father was a Gezon, and the Gezons in Grand Rapids were businessmen. One of them had a big business downtown Grand Rapids. Grandpa had a grocery store in Wyoming Park.
One of the others owned the Studebaker car dealership.
I remember, for example, when I became engaged, the Gezon women had a bridal shower for me. And that was the time that I got the most expensive things for my kitchen. But the Gezon family was well known in Grand Rapids.
When they lived in the Netherlands, Grandpa Jansma had a very thriving business, a bakery. So when he got to Grand Rapids, he wanted to do that. And he opened a store on the corner of Eastern Avenue near Dunham, and it was kitty corner from Eastern Avenue CRC. And during the time of the first two years that he opened his business, the CRC had a huge falling out and an argument in that church, and many of the people left. And with it, so did a lot of grandpa’s customers, and his business went downhill. So he sold it.
And I don’t know what work he did after that. But they had nine kids, interesting variety of uncles and aunts in that group.
Laura: You had an immigrant family and a business oriented family that’s if I would compare them.
Jonathan: Sure. That’s good. Well, I remember your dad always having a lot of style as it related to cars.
Laura: Oh, yes. I remember what a deal it was when they lived in New Jersey and he got a convertible. And he took me for a ride.
Jonathan: Would that have been M.G.? He had a couple of convertibles.
Laura: I don’t know. OK. I don’t know.
Jonathan: OK.
Laura: The other thing you need to know is there was one thing that my mother and father both agreed on. They want to see the world. They took tour after tour after tour. And that started when I was out of the house and they were in New Jersey.
And what happened was during the war, Dad’s church had collected all kinds of warm clothes to send to the Netherlands. And so the Netherlands, to say thanks, sent hundreds of tulip bulbs. So that was the beginning of a connection that Dad and Mom went to Europe first to visit that church. But then, They traveled all over the world. Every summer, they went somewhere. And as the kids left the house, they took three kids on a ship to Europe. But then after that, I think that they did another trip with the two boys. But they every year went somewhere in the world. And that, they agreed and enjoyed each other. And so that became a very big part of the last half of their lives.
Jonathan: I think you have some good stories about your Dad being a chaplain on cruise ships and that sort of thing. Maybe we can cover that in a future call.
Laura: Well, I don’t know that my memory is very good about the details, but I’m going to go digging through some of the notebooks that I have that I’ve found in the mess of the library room that I’m taking apart. And if I can find something that fits this kind of a setting, I’ll save it, and then I’ll read it to you.
Jonathan: That sounds great. Well, let’s wrap up.
Laura: Shall we wrap up today’s call, or is there something related?
Jonathan: OK. Next time we talk, we’ll talk about your siblings in depth. How about that?
Laura: Okay. I don’t know how much I can tell you, but I’ll try.
Jonathan: Okay. I’m going to stop recording now.